Friday, June 08, 2007

open thread friday- legacies

i watched the movie 'stranger than fiction' last night. excellent movie smartly done- i highly recommend it. it is not will farrell being 'blades of glory' funny but it is well written- which is a rarity these days in entertainment. i won't tell you about the movie because i want you to see it- but suffice to say it ties in with my other thoughts of the week- legacies. everyone wants to leave one- whether through work or offspring- and since i have neither- i guess i started thinking about mine. actually, i got thinking about contributing to the world and how people would remember me. i was hoping folks would remember me fondly- although i am outspoken, opinionated and downright anti-social at any given time. then i started thinking about the bigger picture.

jason giambi admitted to steroid use. i know this because i was at my favorite thinking place- the laundromat- and heard it on the tv they have on the sports channel. then, i started thinking about my mother. i am her legacy, as is my sister. she gave her life and her dreams to us because she had to take care of us. she isn't famous and she has no money- but her memory will live on because of us. she also said that we have no heroes anymore- no one to look up to in an era where steroids are the norm rather than the exception and people don't do anything without an angle- and no one wants to use their own merit to get the job done. it's about image and greed and money.

what will america's legacy be? dubya's legacy is one of corruption and war- whether he wants it to be or not- and his children are... well not the greatest legacies you could hope for. america stood for an ideal once. we never matched the idea in reality but we stood for it nonetheless. now, we are known as greedy bullies who renege on promises and refuse to play well with others- even our allies. what will our legacy be in 50 years?

what will mine be? i don't believe in having children to carry on the family name or so that you do have a legacy. i don't have any. i would think that i would want my obituary to read that i was an honest person with integrity who tried real hard to save the planet and save the american constitution. a person who helped others as best as she could and inspired others to be the best that they could be. i don't want fame or money or glory. i want to plant seeds for others to tend and grow. i want people to want peace. that is what i want my legacy to be- you?

cross posted at the peace tree and the peace train


Time said...

It is our duty as American citizens to question our leaders, and impeach those who have committed crimes against the American people, or fail to uphold the Constitution.

President Bush certainly has caused the death of many, especially American troops. Bush should have been impeached long ago, for crimes against America.

I refer to your link to "The Peace Train." A blog that uses hate to make its peace message. A blog that says Bush is as bad as Hitler. How stupid and hate filled a comparison.

I used to be a team member of "Peace Train." I cut my affiliation with that blog, because of their hate towards those they saw as preventing peace in the world.

Hate is not a path towards peace, or a method to change the behavior of those you think are causing violence, or crime. Hate only eliminates any chance for peace.

That is what I believe, and I take issue with you for (so often) noting and cross posting to "The Peace Train."

To expose lies, crimes, political hypocrites, is good and healthy for our country. To use opinion, blame, hate, or delusional comparisons, only feeds unrest and divides people. That is not the path to peace or healing what is wrong with our country.

betmo said...

time- i had no idea that you felt that way- and i am grateful that you expressed your thoughts here. i have to admit that i have not had as much time to read posts over at the peace train- as i have been writing more in different places these days. i won't argue with you on your point that you can't use hatred to promote violence and you can't force peace on those unwilling to embrace it- it defeats the purpose.

i will go on record as saying that intolerance, in my opinion, is not the same as hatred. i feel that we cannot tolerate our civil liberties and constitution being taken away without a fight. i feel that we are a secular nation and that we should fight to maintain separation of church and state. i won't tolerate any less. i personally feel that we should not have to be careful of what we say- but that it should be truthful. i most assuredly agree with you that the method in which one presents an arguement or debate is critical. there is room for opinion and blame- if backed by truth. there is no one but george and company to blame for the current crises in america.

i rely on my friends to point out inaccuracies or things i should be aware of- because that's what we do- we watch each other's backs. i will most assuredly read more at the peace train before link again. thank you time for your candor and your insights. i do appreciate the different perspectives :)

earl said...

As a Peace Train moderator, I'm first of all sorry that Time feels that the Peace Train fails to carry a peace message.

Furthermore, I feel that Louise, as the author of the post he is challenging, went out of her way to say that "Bush is not as bad as Hitler" but that Bush is showing fascism tendencies. If you google Bush & fascism you will get well over a million hits, with information coming from republicans as well as democrats.

And sadly I can find no evidence of any hate talk or hate speech on Peace Train posts or in any of the comments. If I am missing something, I would appreciate it if anyone would point them out.

betmo, I don't want to put you or your blog into the middle of a blog fight, I just tried to answer Time's comment as well as I could.

betmo said...

it isn't the middle guys- i think it is important to talk about these things- because if we don't- then what does that say about us? of course you can always come here and air and talk and disagree and agree. point and counterpoint and debate and discussion is really what most of us want these days. feel free.

Time said...


Thank you for your thoughtful comment at my blog. I did post it, and responded. A lot of that response is the same as I am going to write here.

I only intended to point out that my opinion of Peace Train is not as high as yours, and hope you wouldn't praise them so much. I never intended to have your blog become a battlefield.

I have a blog. If members of Peace Train cared to read it, or visit it, they could leave their comments for me, there.

Some call Social Security, socialist. But it's not the same socialist ideology that Stalin used to kill 40 million people.

It's true if you Google Bush and fascism you will find comparisons. But if you think Bush's illegal actions are the same as Hitler's actions, you are a fool.

Earl once wrote a post on the Middle East. I responded with my opinion and a number of specific ideas on what might be done.

Earl never responded, but continued to write rants on the Middle East. If one is on a serious search for peace, wouldn't discussion of ideas be part of that search? Is ranting enough to find peace?

The photo's in Peace Train's Bush/Hitler article, make my point. It's dishonesty meant to incite people against Bush. The same kind of fear tactics used by neo-cons against the American people.

Is propaganda a tool to search for peace? Is the answer to finding peace, to tear down men. That's an ideology pushed by Peace Train. Are tactics the same, no matter what the results? I for one, know Peace Train is not on the path for peace, because they use dishonest tactics and fear to persuade their readers.

There's no path for peace on Peace Train, just political pandering to "RA RA" and motivate the left. Peace to Peace Train is having Bush hung. There's a peaceful idea for you.

So what got me going. I have a pet peeve for idiots who compare Bush to Hitler. It shows a lack of intelligence and a love to be a fear monger.

There are so many problems that need serious ideas and serious people to help, fear mongers and hypocrites are a waste of time.

earl said...

I don't want to impose on betmo's site anymore with this discussion. I suggest we take any additional comments to the post in dispute, if you should want to continue.

If this Peace Train post was claiming that the Bush administration and the Nazis were literally identical entities, that would be senseless. Louise did not and said so repeatedly. She was comparing the two -- that is, examining the qualities of each to show similarities. These similarities are factual, in that they are based on actual statements of policy made by the respective organizations (Bush admin and German). I think the similarities are chilling, and should give anyone pause for consideration, even if they are not sufficient to show that the Bush administration and the Nazis are exactly the same.

The post contained more than ten similarities, and the comments contained more, such as parallels between the Reichstag Fire Decree and the National Security Presidential Directive/NSPD 51 and the Gestapo memo describing ways of getting information out of prisoners using "enhanced interrogation" that the US now uses. Now I think you could argue that any or all of these similarities aren't fair comparisons and fail to meet the test - which you never did to my knowledge.

Instead you said the pictures alone only show hate, so you are taking just part of the post out of context, and then misrepresenting the post by saying it says the Bush administration and the Nazis are exactly the same. I further think that your calling Peace Train a hate site, is your right, but it is a low blow and is completely unfair. I've tried to get more out of your criticism, but I don't see it.

Time said...

I went to your blog and voiced my opinion about an article. I have a blog that you refuse to use to make your comments to me.

That's ok, betmo said she didn't mind if we talked here, but now you refuse to do that either.

That does not surprise me, as I have had experience with you before, not wanting to engage in discussion, just lecture me.

Many have, (with evidence) shown that Bush has broken the law, his Constitutional oath, and the Constitution itself, without invoking the fear tactic of the Hitler comparison.

You now say that the article was not intended to say Bush is the same as Hitler, only like Hitler.

So why the provocative headlines and images? (same shit different person)

It's propaganda meant to incite anger and hate towards Bush. I think Bush is a danger to America.

I have a problem with a site that poses itself as a path to peace, using such propaganda that only incites fear, anger, and hate.

Tactics worthy of hateful neocons like Dick Cheney.

The tactics discussed in the article are methods used to manipulate a governmental process.

Leaders of all kinds of governments (free or not) have used those kind of political tactics.

There are much worse examples from other American Presidents. None of which even come close to Hitler like oppression.

It's your description of Bush's intentions that is flawed. Maybe, like everyone says, he's just stupid and not capable of making an intelligent decision. Is there no other reason Bush does what he does, except he's evil?

You should examine the kind of laws Americans had to live under during WWII.

I have no tolerance for hypocrites on any side of political ideology.

Show us your open minded, peaceful intentions, and examine your own use of propaganda. You don't see it, because you don't want to admit it to yourself.