Monday, July 17, 2006
fine... i'll post
i am so breaking my self-imposed rule on not posting about the israeli-palestinian thing. i have been reading much about it all over the blogsphere though- and many things come to mind. first- i hear that 'israel has a right to exist.' why? why is their right to exist so much greater than lebanon- who they seem to be intent on blowing off of the map? second- israel has a right to defend herself. fine. if it was only about defending herself then i would agree. defense has nothing to do with treating an entire class of people abominably- look at the untouchables in india. third- israel and america are attempting to promote democracy in the middle east. how? by bombing the shit out of people who don't want it? this isn't about what is best for anyone- it is about what is best for america. like it or not- it is simplistic to think that we can bomb islamic fundamentalists out of the middle east. they are everywhere folks and we can either bomb the shit out of every country in the world- or we can think about the problem more complexly for a change. israel is no more special than any other country on the planet. the folks there feel that they are 'god's chosen people.' good for them. i am sure that the islamic fundies feel that they are allah's chosen too. this is a collusion with america to get into syria and then iran- and the folks in the middle east know it. if you can't see it then your head is buried in nationalistic sand.
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19 comments:
I am so going to be late to work. However: Israel's right to exist is not greater than Lebanon's. But Israel does have a right to exist. So does Gaza. So does Iraq; and Iran. And on and on and on.
Israel's reactions to the kidnapping of three IDF soldiers has been over-the-top wrong. Israel has a reputation for surgical, focused strikes on specific targets. Broad, destructive attacks are not in their best interests; for me, it begs the question whether their reaction is "collusion" or manipulation by the PNAC? I feel the latter.
Olmert is not the best choice to be Prime Minister of Israel, at least for the Israelis. He is the best choice for the PNAC.
Several Arab nations, including Egypt, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia have joined together is sharply rebuking, even blaming, Hezbollah for provoking this war. This is a first; Arab nations have never before criticized another Arab entity against Israel.
Israel MUST cease fire immediately; it must also sit down with Hamas, the elected government for the Palestinians, and work at the negotiating table. It must.
And, if Hezbollah were so supportive of their Palestinian bretheren, why have they done nothing to aleviate conditions of Palestinians living in Lebanon, which are as bad as conditions in Gaza? Because Hezbollah doesn't really care about the Palestinians.
divajood- sorry about the late for work thing. i agree with your comments entirely.
Agreed betmo.
What has not been reported in the MSm was the month long bombardment of Gaza before the taking of the IDF member as a POW.
Peace. It is possible. Just not with the sick bastards who are in power now.
I can only agree.
Gaza and Lebanon have no oil and only weak "defense forces" but even powerful or oil soaked countries should recognise their right not to be pulverised.
Pete
i see this problem different. Isreal has a right to exist and has had to fight for that right since it's existence. I would love to think that america has nothing to do with it but of course it does. They always go thru Isreal to get to us. The way I see it Isreal gave Palestine land and they were rewarded by having a terrorist gov't installed. The backword thinking in that part of the world makes me sick. Sorry if this gets to many reactions Betmo, I was so looking for Constitution Monday
I think you're right about the alliance between the US and Israel... but not the reasoing of it.
I also think you missed something about Israel's right to exist. Hezbollah and Hamas both deny that right, and effectivly, thats who Israel is fighting, not Lebenon proper.
If Lebenon and Syria would actually riegn in those groups and keep them from operating atonomously (spelling/), then this entire thing would actually be decided along normal diplomatic lines via the UN.
But Hezbollah does not have a representitive in the UN, or a diplomat seeking peace talks with Israel.
They have rockets, lots of them, supplied by Iran via Syria, and they are going to keep lobbing them at Israel until they either meet some self-knoly only condition, or Israel makes them unable to launch anymore.
Seriously, how would you expect... say Canada to act, if the "Militia Men of America" (fake ultra fanatic cult of religious right folks... only militarized) started lobbing mortar shells at the various towns long the US/American border?
Better yet, what if these "Militia Men" did it almost every day, but the US government did NOTHING to stop it. Worse, what if after 10 years of it.. Canda found out the US was finacially supporting the "Militia Men", and so was Mexico?
Now, what if the US military was crap. Small and feeble. Would Canada continue to repsect our soviergnty? Would they continue to wait for the US to do something? Would Canada just keep "praying" for peace?
Would you condemn Canada when they decided to finally take a decisive action against the "Militia Men?"
This thing isnt about those terrible Israeli aggressors, it really is about survival. EVERYONE... repeat that, because it is important, EVERYONE in the region where they live would like to see them cease to exist. The only reason they are still there is because they have the military might to crush anyone who tries.
And make no mistake, this isnt about religion either. This has nothing to do with God or Allah, but everything to do with Pride, racism, and thousand year old grudges.
Betmo,
Kira was mean to me on Spooky Pete's blog..
I'm tempted to have her go to my blog to settle down..and check out the women porn sites..
Should I?
Beth
Oh, the late to work thing is just a daily occurance, Betmo.
I want to respond to Dawn, though. Israel does have a right to exist, and to defend itself. I lived on a Kibbutz in the Upper Galilee for a while, right between the Lebanese Border and the Golan Heights. At the time I lived there, there were daily bombings on Israel - daily - from Lebanon. Israel responded with surgical strikes. I saw friends of mine blown up by land mines left by the Syrians retreating from Golan.
I know of very few people who dispute a country's right to defend itself when attacked within its own borders. Israel was attacked by Hamas and by Hezbollah, but the reaction by Israel is so far from proportional and appropriate, it makes my head spin.
One soldier was kidnapped into Gaza; Israel makes ALL of Gaza suffer. Two soldiers are kidnapped by Hezbollah, which is NOT Lebanon, and all of Lebanon must suffer. That's not right.
I support Israel, I support a Jewish State. It is my homeland as much as the USA is my homeland. I was born in the US, but I have the option of Israeli citizenship by the Law of Return. As a Jew, and as an American, it is my duty to speak out when my country is wrong.
I also ask for balance, though, when speaking about the Middle East situation. I am against singling out Israel to be the only nation or entity at fault here. Israel is not alone in wrongdoing - and Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia have acknowledged that in a rare criticism of Hezbollah.
The spiritual principle of "you go first" does apply -- and really, it seems to me that Israel needs to step up and stand down, cease fire first. They gain a lot in the world's eyes if they do; they gain more than they do with continued pounding of Lebanon and Gaza.
But driven by the PNAC, and with a stubborn Prime Minister in Olmert, I fear that won't happen any time soon.
Looks like a convenient way to get Israel to blow up Iran for us.
"The way I see it Isreal gave Palestine land and they were rewarded by having a terrorist gov't installed. The backword thinking in that part of the world makes me sick. '
And this kind of forward thinking is much better. Please let's not get into an us and them rascist volley. I think the poor people of that backward region have had enough. And Israel did not give them land, it was THEIR Land too!
And Diva these surgical strieks you speak of, sound a lot like American smart bombs. They are massacring people as we speak. Wait till this is over and the truth starts to be told.
You repeatedly say that Israel is not the only one to blame. Fine, but they are not making it any eaier to feel sorry for.
well I knew comments would come. Let me say that Isreal survives because they have the best military and intelligence in the world. I don't think any one can deny that. I also think the strike was appropriate. In my heart thou I have had chances to send my children to Isreal thru programs here in the states and I have chosen not to for fear of what is going on now. My actual first thought was that War World 3 would start over this. I can't see how there going to settle this if the arab nations don't ban together to denounce Hezzbollah and Hamas. Again thank you Betmo for the forum
BZ, my dear, you tend to stop short of reading what I'm saying. Israel's current reaction is wrong. Hezbollah was wrong. Israel needs to stand down and cease fire, and also needs to go to the bargaining table. All you seem to see is that I expect those of us in the USA, and Liberals, to use balance.
Clearly you and I are not going to see eye to eye on this issue. My position is this: Israel does not shoulder sole responsibility; Hezbollah, and the militant arm of Hamas are also culpable. Israel has a right to defend itself, but needs to act in a proportional manner which it clearly did not do.
Your position is that Israel is solely the bad guy. This kind of black and white thinking is exactly what you are accusing Israel of doing. I get the sense from you that Israel does not have the right to exist at all, given your unflinching support of Hamas and Hezbollah. Hezbollah promises the destruction of Israel by 2025. Do you support that?
BZ, go look at the Israeli-Palestinian Center For Research - link on my site. It is a joint think tank trying to move toward lasting peace. You talk about an open mind, yet your reaction to anyone who supports Israel is far from that.
to everyone- thanks for commenting. this is a controversial topic for many- and quite frankly by personal ban was for myself- i just didn't want the hassle. i am not denying israel's right to be- that is a moot point. israel is here and that's it. hezbollah and hamas are wrong for using the forum that they use- terrorist tactics- to get their point across.
moving on. this whole thing is part of the plan to take the middle east. it isn't about 'the war on terror.' there isn't going to be a winner in that war because it isn't a war. stopping terrorism is going to take complex thought and complex solutions- none of which are going to come from israel or america at this point. it is going to have to come from somewhere and folks- it isn't looking good. i do agree that it is going to take a global approach to stop- and let's face it- we are going to have to start thinking of other countries and not just our own. where is islamic fundamentalism spreading to? take a look there- and you are on your way to the start of the solution.
beth- you are on your own. i don't deal with trolls.
I wanted to comment on this earlier, but I would have been late to work as well. betmo knows I have done a couple posts on this already. I am left-wing, and I did get one strange response.
I agree with most of the points that were made, but I do not think even Bush lacks enough intelligence to see that if we cannot restore order in Iraq, then the whole rest of the Middle East is probably not doable.
I agree with those who have said that many Arab countries hate Israel simply because they exist, but with the wave of extreme Islam that seems to be becoming more prevalent I do thinks it has a lot to do with religion.
Some people will just never get along, like me and say, pat robertson, but as many other have mentioned that does not give us the right to fire missiles in each other's general directions.
Clinton realized that this would be a long, ongoing process, and I think it has taken back burner, to Iraq. (As has Afghanistan. Did anyone see the msm article on how the Taliban has taken over a couple places there? And we are still trying hard to find bin laden.)
Someone has got to encourage both sides to take that big first step. It is encouraging that some Arab nations have denounced the initial attacks on Israel, but Israel would gain a lot more cred (that's slang for credibility) if they removed all of their settlers from foreign lands.
Peer pressure is the only thing that will stop future attacks. Has Israel bombing the heck out of Lebanon stopped any counterattacks? Israel has the right to exist within their boundries, but they are only causing themselves and the world more problems allowing settlers to squat on foreign land.
OOPS!
this paragraph was supposed to be sarcastic. here is the corrected version....
Clinton realized that this would be a long, ongoing process, and I think it has taken back burner, to Iraq. (As has Afghanistan. Did anyone see the msm article on how the Taliban has taken over a couple places there? And we are still trying hard to find bin laden, yeah right!)
Let’s not get a hot head Diva. This sort of dialogue is exactly what is needed. We cannot simply walk away from negotiation. I am learning that politics is not changing opinions, but learning to live with other people’s ideas. So I appreciate you calling me on being on sided. On that note, you seem very passionate and educated on the pitfalls of US policy, but than blinded by your allegiance when discussing Israel. I hope you can see that what is happening in Iraq and what is happening in Lebanon are tightly connected.
Now on to a few points, you said, “Israel does not shoulder sole responsibility; Hezbollah, and the militant arm of Hamas are also culpable. Israel has a right to defend itself, but needs to act in a proportional manner which it clearly did not do.”
We agree here. The problem here is that it is hard to negotiate with Hezbollah, and the militant arm of Hamas, especially when you have a “we don’t negotiate with terrorist” policy, and have had for over 30 years. But Israel has never acted in a proportional manner. This is my main problem. Sure if they want to defend themselves and root out all Hezbollah in southern Lebanon, and they want to do it violently, then why don’t they send in ground troops and actually fight them? Why are they bombing escaping villagers and the suburbs of Beirut? Why destroy the entire infrastructure of a nation that has already been through years of civil war and invasions.
My opinion is that the freedom of their soldiers is not their aim. They are proving a point, and in the process they are terrorizing a new generation, making enemies and killing innocent people, non of which will bring about peace or free the soldiers.
Next you said, “your position is that Israel is solely the bad guy. This kind of black and white thinking is exactly what you are accusing Israel of doing.
Point well made. You are right.
I get the sense from you that Israel does not have the right to exist at all, given your unflinching support of Hamas and Hezbollah. Hezbollah promises the destruction of Israel by 2025. Do you support that?
I don’t believe in any of my comments or my posts I have ever support either Hamas or Hezbollah. Correct me if I am wrong. You are right they are in the wrong. Their tactics are doing the biggest disservice to the Palestinian people. I think that Palestine would be best served with a collective, socialist, mass-nonviolent uprising like Ghandi. This would cripple the Israel economy and force the world to finally hear their voice. But Israel will never allow this, because it is much easier dealing with terrorist organizations like Hamas and Hezbolllah. Especially when all you have to do is a “whack a mole” operation using weapons Uncle Sam gives you.
So please do not pull the anti-Semite card here. I do believe that Israel and Israelis, Jews Christians and Muslims have a right to exist, but not if it means that they must hanker down and constantly antagonize their neighbors.
One of the great myths is that "tiny Israel" armed with 200 nuclear weapons is threatened by Muslim Middle Eastern countries. In actual fact, Egypt and Pakistan, which have the bulk of the Middle Eastern Muslim population, are ruled by American puppets. Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and the oil emirates are totally dependent on U.S. protection and, thereby, are also under the American thumb. Iran is Persian, not Arab, and has no common borders with Israel. Hezbollah was created when Israel tried to seize Lebanon in 1982. Hamas is a Palestinian response to the atrocities Palestinians have suffered for a half century at Israel's hands.
As you can see in a way both of these groups were formed as a direct result of Israeli policy.
In closing, I will check out the link on your site and try and be a bit more open minded when it comes to Israel.
Shalom to all. I know this can get difficult and tedious at times, but if even we, here in blog land cannot come up with any compromise, how can we expect the poor people of Haifa or Trye to do it.
Here are some articles to check out:
http://antiwar.com/roberts/
http://antiwar.com/justin?articleid=9314
as i recall- last week or two weeks ago- hamas wanted to sit down with israel. this was after israel bombed the picnickers. israel declined. is my memory correct? i haven't had my morning coffee. and- israel was unofficially talking to hamas when hezbollah kidnapped the other 2 soldiers- thus the bombing began and hamas- and more accurately lebanon itself- got the shit bombed out of it. not hezbollah.
betmo, Egypt and Spain were working with Olmert to get Israel and Hamas into talks - it was moving forward when Hezbollah, ever opportunistic, kidnapped the two IDF Soldiers. Talks then fell apart.
bz, I'm passionate about this but I'm not angry at you - simply asking you to be more open minded than you'd been. My support of Israel includes - DEMANDS - that I am critical of the present actions of the government. Punishing all of Gaza for the actions of a militant arm is wrong; punishing all of Lebanon for the actions of Hezbollah is wrong. Israel equates Hezbollah with Lebanon, and that is so far from reality, it's stunning.
I agree with you that Iraq, and now Lebanon, are connected -- this leads me to believe that the Project for a New American Century (PNAC) is behind the actual kidnapping of the two IDF Soldiers; that they've manipulated the middle east to further their goals to invade Iran and then Syria - and will use Israel to do the work because the US military is spread too thin. That's a tragedy in and of itself.
I'm in total agreement with you that the Palestinians need to organize in a collective, non-violent manner - but there are any number of Israelis who support such an initiative - which, as I mosey over to your blog, I see you are beginning to find.
This region, the Middle East, should be a thriving area, and would be were it not for constant wars. The militant fundamentalists (Islamic and Jewish and US base neoconservative Christians) manipulate those decent people who want a peaceful solution - there are so many Israeli/Palestinians working together toward peace, we need to find them and support them.
Perhaps we are not so far apart, BZ.
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